kasia in a nutshell

Next time, before you engage in an install, why not 'burninate' your own CD's so you don't have to depend on the kindness of strangers. I generally visit http://linuxiso.org/ before such installs.

I also keep a copy of http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/ around as an emergency boot just in case things go haywire.

I had a similar issue with FC1 when I installed it. I ran up2date and it hosed all kinds of packages around the system, including the one font package X required to start up. I can't say whether up2date or RPM was to blame though. My solution was to run up2date w/o the X gui (my only choice) and force it to re-install all the packages it mangled. Everything has been working very well since... overall I'm please w/ FC1.

I think your argument that the error handling in a situation like that shows no future for Linux on the desktop isn't sound. I'd like to see what happens to Windows if you wiped out its fonts - it probably wouldn't be much different. At least on Linux you can get everything back together easily from the CLI. I'm sure you could in Windows as well, but I doubt there are many users of Windows would be familiar enough with the CLI tools to bring the system back to a working state.

You misunderstood the issue. I didn't wipe out fonts.. there were all the default fonts installed on the system. Up2date has a font preference for a Helvetica font I chose not to install initially.

So couple things went wrong here.

1. The application has a font preference and doesn't use what's available to the system.

2. Error handling is non-existant. Should have given feedback to the user "I won't run because I stupidly require you have this particular font installed".

3. If the application actually requires this font to run, it should be evident during install. You know.. dependency.

Ah, well, you had a very different problem than I and I agree with you somewhat more in that case.

However, just because one package is badly maintained, doesn't mean linux as a whole has no chance as a desktop OS for an average user. up2date happens to be a app specific of the RedHat/Fedora distros. Given they are targetting desktop users, it is very poor on their part not to maintain a very strict and high level of quality control on their own applications. Hopefully other distributions and linux application developers will strive for better quality than RedHat has produced in this case.

Just to reassure you that I have seen applications on the Mac crash because of a missing font.

Absurd.

(Admittedly the app in question was one of those crappy 'Install Anywhere' installers for old Cisco VPN software. Java, iirc. Still embarassing, though.)

I agree with your assesment.

While the geek-speak here does lead to solutions, yes, it's the non-geeks that will have to be placated before Linux goes mainstream.

Sure, there are many (many, many...) bad things one can rag on MS about, but they currently do a better job FOR THE AVERAGE USER of getting what needs to be done/installed completed with little choice. (Mac does even better - or they did in pre-OS X days; I've not done any OS X installs.)

Yes, Linux is about choice...sorta. Not for the folks (AVERAGE USERS) who the success of desktop Linux depends upon.

Kasia - I think the best adjective you used was "amateurish" - that's the issue in a nutshell, but - fortunately - it's getting better.

Consider Linux as a work in progress..things are going to be a-changing, so tomorrow you may not even see that problem. It might have already been fixed..things are constantly improving. It might even have a little note on the side of it in a comment..

"/*--ATTN: Fix this POS already..goddammit BELOW --*/".

Linux is taking its sweet time at the desktop market..much like a prom date. Gotta get those curls, the dress, gallons of glitter (erk, i hate glitter- can't get it off), lipstick and other random things right you know.

Sometimes though, sometimes..your date has to step out to check if shes ready..when shes not, you hear a scream- then a snap of the door.

Linux will always be getting ready to date. Till then, we can only hear the door snap and a different version come out every time.

Love your prom date nevertheless..

I'm done with my stupid analogies. I need to find better ones.

It's sort of amazing that at this point it the game we're still having trouble with things like installers and the keep-yourself-up-to-date software.

Sad.

"one floppy drive dangling on a cable and propped by a pile of books was the solution."

If I had a dollar for every time I've done this ...

I have grave doubts about the usability of Fedora. I've actually installed it on a couple of machines and fifteen bug reports later moved right back to a Debian derivative or Gentoo. I know this issue has been harped on more than it probably needs to but in order for RedHat to get all of their bug squishing done for RHEL they really do need some kind of sanity check for releases. I've never been a fan of RH even in the boxed workstation editions but I refuse to be a sucker even if it means working around a de facto standard.

How long you been using OSX now ?

I think you are really brave to comment on Linux's desktop performance, this is not just limited to Fedora but to Mandrake and others.

I don't want to bitch about it, but I often think that linux users tend to be too keen to make everything linux that they often gloss over it's short comings.

I was also surprised by your CD burning problem on OSX, how did you do it ?

I was just thinking

I installed KDE yesterday and all was fine except I couldn't get the borders of windows working.

I could not close or minimise or even move the windows about.

Turns out KDE needs to det itself as it's own window manager.

Sam, since September or so, when I bought my powerbook. As the burning.. I just mounted the iso images, copied filed and burned.. apparently that screws up file names. (Cases, lack of .'s)

Well there's your problem. On MacOS X, never mount ISO images before burning, it can mess up the ISO structure in subtle ways. Just open Disk Utility, drag the .iso file to the window on the left, click it once and hit Burn. When done, drag the .iso out of the window and it will go poof. (that part took me a while to figure out).

Charles is right

As a convert from the Winblows world, I have followed Linux since Redhat 5.1. Up until today, with the Mandrake 10 release, I have not yet found a Linux that even comes close to the ease-of-use and installability of Redmond's best.

I have been a network/computer tech for over 20-years, and watched as Unix struggled to gain worldwide acceptance as THE os of choice. It never happened! Linux, though, has a real chance. Unix was plagued by too many varieties to take it seriously, with each proclaiming "We're the best, and our competitors suck!" Linux took that path for a while, but then, somewhat wiser people realized that it was counterproductive and decided to "get along." Linux is now a happening thing, even with all its warts. It is ascending to the throne of world-wide acceptance. YOU are helping that happen!

Remember this...Windows by Microsoft was once a rebel's choice over other Operating Systems available in 1986. Microsoft became a money-grubbing demon, and never really stabilized their patched up OS. So, they are on the descent, while Linux rises.

With this latest Mandrake 10 release, and others I've read about, it looks like Linux has matured enough to actually become a desktop threat to Redmond. I say..."it's about time!"